On this episode of People Fundamentals, I’m joined by Kyle Lagunas, Head of Strategy and Principal Analyst at Aptitude Research and host of Transformation Realness. We discuss the challenges of a narrow focus on productivity without accounting for the humans behind the work.
As an HR analyst, Kyle sees a lot of business leaders pushing productivity as a top talent priority. But as a human, he’s not sure how helpful the productivity discourse is. “I just feel like this trend of push from business leadership down to workforce is creating a real squeeze — and it’s a moment where the workforce is not going to get juiced anymore,” he says.
In this conversation, recorded live at UNLEASH America 2024 in Las Vegas, Kyle shares his take on the importance of balancing productivity with humanity and ways you can foster a supportive work environment.
Listen in as we explore ways to bring people back into productivity.
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Shift your focus from productivity to performance
One of the biggest problems with the top-down push for higher productivity is that the expectation from business leaders is disconnected from the reality of employee experience. “You can’t ask for productivity if you’re not going to get a meaningful performance review at the end of this push, right?” Kyle says. “And I just feel like there is a disconnect here of, we’re doing the wrong work. We’re reaching for the right outcome, but we’re doing the wrong work.”
Productivity alone is too narrow a metric, because there are hundreds of factors that influence it. You need to capture more nuanced data that better represents people at work. Some of Kyle’s latest research into the effectiveness of performance management processes bears that out. “The very effective organizations were implementing performance management programs that had structured data that they were gathering,” he found. “They were gathering data beyond that performance management conversation.”
The best performance management processes pull in data from a variety of sources, such as ongoing performance conversations, rewards and recognition platforms, and customer feedback for a more complete picture of the drivers of productivity.
Roll it back to the human element
When dealing with people, metrics will never tell the full story. We need to lean more into elements that, traditionally, have been harder to quantify. The first step is simply to acknowledge that numbers can’t capture the full breadth of human productivity. From there, you can explore additional avenues to understand the factors influencing performance.
“[P]roductivity is a nuanced and multidimensional concept, multifaceted, and so let’s not just go manic with metrics,” Kyle says. “Maybe that’s part of the message is, ‘Let’s really kind of lean back in with the IO psychologists and talk about: What’s the psychology of productivity? What level of psychological safety and inclusivity do we need here to foster a productive environment?’”
Walking it back to what makes us human — our emotions, interests, sense of purpose — can help better understand what employees need from you to be more productive.
Become a catalyst for a better workplace
There are some changes you can make as an HR leader to bring the human element back into focus. First, Kyle says, return to your company values. Reinforcing what the company stands for goes a long way toward helping recenter performance processes around what’s most important.
Kyle’s second recommendation is to connect the workforce with benefits, especially auxiliary benefits, that they aren’t using. “[T]here are HR programs and products that we have already delivered that need to be revisited. So let’s start looking at that,” he says. Employees don’t always see how much you’ve invested in their well-being or the resources available to help them improve their whole selves. Bringing these benefits to their attention drives a healthier workplace — an essential starting point for driving productivity.
Kyle’s final piece of advice? Don’t overthink it. “Find a space that gives you joy, that just is an outlet. Have some escapism,” he says. “I think breathe and touch grass as you’re thinking about productivity. Don’t just sit squirreled in your office staring at 16 different spreadsheets.”
People in This Episode
Kyle Lagunas: LinkedIn
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Transcript
Kyle Lagunas:
There are a lot of different ways for your work to be rewarding, and it can be things like having flexibility to go and pick your kids up from school or to go to the gym or to take your mom to a health check, get your dogs to the groomers, whatever. Flexibility does really give people a lot more of just breathing space, I guess. But I think other ways to make things rewarding is just to give people good feedback, give people real and meaningful opportunities for growth and development.
Ashley Litzenberger:
Hello and welcome to Betterworks People Fundamentals podcast. I’m your host, Ashley Litzenberger, Senior Director of Product Marketing. Betterworks’ core belief in people fundamentals revolves around helping HR lead through constant change by focusing on core values like fairness, support, balance, and enabling growth opportunities for employees. These tenets empower everyone in the workforce to strive for excellence, to foster creativity, and to acknowledge each other’s contributions. Betterworks believes that strategic HR leaders can translate these principles into action, shaping their workforce for the better and helping drive meaningful business outcomes.
In today’s episode, recorded live at UNLEASH America 2024 in Las Vegas, we’re chatting with Kyle Lagunas, Head of Strategy and Principal Analyst at Aptitude Research. He’s also a host of the HR and talent management podcast, Transformation Realness. Kyle joins us today to talk about enhancing workforce productivity while keeping the human touch in the workplace. Kyle has a ton of experience and insights to share on performance management and the importance of trust and meaningful feedback. He also discusses dealing with workforce burnout and why flexible work arrangements and structured data are key. We also discussed the generational shifts in work expectations and how HR can align company values with the needs of a diverse workforce.
Kyle’s take on the future of work highlights the need for a human-centered approach to ensure employees feel valued and supported. So get ready to delve into fresh ideas for boosting productivity and creating an inclusive work environment. After all, a successful organization isn’t just about hitting short-term goals. It’s about fostering a culture where employees thrive, feel valued, and are motivated to contribute their best every day.
Kyle, thank you so much for joining us today. I’m really excited to have you on our podcast.
Kyle Lagunas:
I’m so happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
Ashley Litzenberger:
I want to go ahead and dive in and ask you a question that I’ve been asking a lot of folks in the HR space which is, we’re all hyper-focused right now on creating a more productive workforce and doing everything we can to increase workforce productivity. But what does that actually mean? How would you define productivity?
Kyle Lagunas:
Oh, my gosh. I love and hate this trend. So part of my job as an analyst is to look at something that’s happening in the market or in the industry, and examine it a little bit more closely and critically. If I’m looking at this major push for productivity, I almost have to wonder, are we obsessing over this because we have still struggled to measure productivity? Are we obsessing with this because we are preoccupied with performance and high performance and results, and are we just under immense pressure to make our corporate overlords happy? I don’t know if this focus on productivity is especially productive. I feel like the psyche of the workforce is really fragile right now. And we’ve seen in the last two years, year and a half, major market shifts for tech talent and for recruiters. The HR organization has gone through hell and yeah, I don’t know what’s behind it, like this push for productivity. I can tell you, I don’t know if I like it.
Ashley Litzenberger:
That’s really interesting. I was thinking as you were talking, just something that I’ve been really battling with is how do I define productivity? Because at face value, it could be, I’m a marketer, so it could be how many assets am I creating, how many documents am I producing that are going out and getting used on a daily basis? And I’ve been working with my manager to redefine what I do to not be a volume-based output, but be an impact-based output. So we have conversations around, is the goal that 100% of my work is poorly adopted by a high number of people at my company or is 80% of my work ultimately never going to see the light of day, but 20% of my work actually have a transformative impact on our marketing or our sales team or our product team in the decisions that they make that have really big outputs for our team?
Kyle Lagunas:
100%. I think you and I sitting here and talking about that, we are going to nod along and people listening are going to nod along like, “Yeah. Absolutely, I want that.” If you scale that though, you have trust, you have credibility, right? Yourself and your role. And so if you have a quiet day or a slow day or air quotes, “unproductive day” because you didn’t deliver anything, no one’s breathing down your neck because they know that you’re going to come through. The extended workforce doesn’t have that credibility. If we step all the way back and we look at the workforce, it is impersonal. It is not a living, breathing thing that we have to care about, its mental well-being. We don’t have to care about its psychological safety. We just have to expect that asset to return. You know what I mean? And so I feel like in your personal experience, I celebrate that, I agree with you.
Ashley Litzenberger:
Yeah. I guess I wonder what are the things that we can do to bring humanity back to the workforce? Because we are living in a place of extreme burnout. We are living in a world that quiet quitting became a huge trend. We don’t hear about it anymore, but I’m sure that it’s still there.
Kyle Lagunas:
It created so much angst in corporate America.
Ashley Litzenberger:
We have an entire generation that’s coming up saying, “I don’t want to move up in my career. I don’t want to become a people manager. I want to stay as an individual contributor to reduce the stress that I have in my life.” So when we think about workforce productivity without the human element to it, without that trust or without the context and the motivation that makes doing work and being invested in it highly rewarding, you start to create this really toxic culture. So how do you bring that back in?
Kyle Lagunas:
You’re getting right to it right there. It is about making it rewarding, making it worth the effort. And I’m not just talking about paying people equitably, although I am. It also means giving them trust, giving them space. I mean, look, I think that there does need to be more structured accountability. I mean, okay, so we just published at Aptitude, a new research study on the state of performance management. Performance management is one of these HR things that I have been told is dying. I have been told it is the most important thing.
It has been through many cycles and iterations of change and innovation, right? But we still aren’t getting it right. And something that was so interesting to me in this study, the first question we asked is, how would you rate your performance management programs’ effectiveness overall? And we surveyed 250 HR leaders in North America. 80% of them rated their current performance management programs as either effective or very effective. 80%. Girl, that is not right. That is optimism, right? And first I was panicking. I was like, “Did I get bad survey data?”
Ashley Litzenberger:
You didn’t. In fact, Betterworks also ran a performance enablement report, and we found a very serious disconnect between HR practitioners who thought they were running effective performance management and managers feeling completely unsupported by their HR teams. So you’re right on the money.
Kyle Lagunas:
It’s like we were doing the same study and actually, we partnered with Laurie Ruettimann on it. She’s our adjunct analyst. She likes to say she’s my intern. And we were going to call it performance enablement. We were, because that was what we wanted to focus on. So I really, I have seen the study that you guys did, and I love that validation of, as colleagues, studying the market, we see that trend. What was interesting was we looked at the practices then, so I immediately segmented those cohorts. What we found was, you are either effective or you’re not because I started to look at, all right, well, what are the best practices? What are the outcomes of these other levels of effectiveness?
No one else was really moving the needle, except for those at the very top. Those that were very effective were the only actually effective ones. So compared the practices of those two. If you look at the entire cohort of very effective and everyone else, they were gathering the same data. They were looking at skills, they were looking at competencies, they were looking at productivity, goal attainment. And so we’re like, “Okay. Well, if they’re all looking at the same thing, then what’s the difference?” The very effective organizations were implementing performance management programs that had structured data that they were gathering. They were gathering data beyond that performance management conversation. So over time-
Ashley Litzenberger:
So continuous performance management?
Kyle Lagunas:
Continuous performance management. And they were pulling in data from rewards and recognition platforms. They were pulling in feedback from clients. So they were structuring their data differently. It really came down to how structured their data was. And so if we look at something, going back to your question like productivity piece, I said, I think we’re kind of spinning the wheels here because we don’t know how to measure it. We don’t know how to enable it, and we’re just spinning up a bunch of stuff. Girl, we still need to just focus on the performance piece. You can’t ask for productivity if you’re not going to get a meaningful performance review at the end of this push, right? And I just feel like there is a disconnect here of, we’re doing the wrong work. We’re reaching for the right outcome, but we’re doing the wrong work.
Ashley Litzenberger:
So what is the right work? I think that’s the big question. What is the data that you were measuring and what is the right thing to do?
Kyle Lagunas:
You had said reward. There are a lot of different ways for your work to be rewarding, and it can be things like having flexibility to go and pick your kids up from school or to-
Ashley Litzenberger:
Or go to the gym.
Kyle Lagunas:
Go to the gym or to take your mom to a health check, get your dogs to the groomers, whatever. Flexibility does really give people a lot more of just breathing space, I guess. But I think other ways to make things rewarding is just to give people good feedback. Give people real and meaningful opportunities for growth and development, connecting them with the skills that we need to move the business forward instead of just saying, “We have an internal mobility program. Do whatever you want. Log into the LMS and take some courses.” It’s like giving meaning for these other things.
Ashley Litzenberger:
Yeah. The most disengaging moment that I’ve ever had in my career is I went through a two-year period where I had four managers, which is a lot of change in turnover. And each one of them, after a period of time, they would be like, “Do you mind if we cancel our one-on-one this week? Just because you’re not on fire and I need to focus on the things that are really problematic.” And so I got this feedback loop of, because I’m sailing the ship and things are steady, I’m not important to this company and that’s so disengaging. And so that’s the thing about constructive feedback, about positive feedback, about being messaged to and being engaged with, is so important for a reward or a recognition or feeling invested in the work that you’re doing, and managers are the lever for that.
Kyle Lagunas:
I mean, imagine being told that you need to be twice as productive and there is no, in it, no WIFM. There’s nothing in it for you beyond, well, you have a job here and you have a paycheck here. You’re welcome. I do think that is some of the mentality that is maybe underlying some of this, and that’s deeply cynical and I think it’s not sustainable, more importantly, especially… Okay, so I’m a millennial. I don’t know if you are. I remember when just maybe eight years ago, there would be literally people giving keynotes about dogging on millennials and Gen Y and how whiny we were and how we always wanted feedback and blah, blah, blah, blah. It’s like, “Okay, well, that’s rude. We’re asking for things that actually you should have asked for in your previous generations.” Gen Z now, oh, they are spicy, girl. They are kind of scary.
They will be like, “No, I’m not working from the office. I’m working from home. I’m not turning my camera on. I’m just not in the mood today.” They literally will put up boundaries all over the place and I don’t think that they’re going to tolerate… Look, I want to be producing in my work, but I also want it to be worth my time. And that doesn’t mean money at all, or not just. I feel like Gen Z is going to push back on this really hard and they’ll check out. They have no shame. They will literally go, move back in with their parents. “I don’t care. We’re like, ‘I’m not going to go and work for them.’” You know what I mean? “I’m gonna to go join the Peace Corps for six years. I don’t know.” I just feel like this trend of push from business leadership down to workforce is creating a real squeeze and it’s a moment where the workforce is not going to get juiced anymore.
Ashley Litzenberger:
Well, and it’s really important at the same time to recognize that you do have this huge group of individuals, this huge segment of your workforce that’s retiring, as more millennials and more Gen Zs take on greater proportions-
Kyle Lagunas:
About damn time.
Ashley Litzenberger:
Yeah.
Kyle Lagunas:
Just kidding.
Ashley Litzenberger:
Of your workforce. You need to figure out what it is that’s motivating them, what it is that makes them want to stay, because we know that employee churn rates is really destructive to workforce productivity. Actually, one of the most effective things you can do to increase workforce productivity is to keep more of your top performers in seat. And so what are the things that you can do to create that engagement and to speak to the expectations and the hopes of the younger workforce that is coming in so they do stay. We learned that the times of having a 40-year career in one company, those days are long gone, but we are very aware that we don’t want to continue this trend of two years in one place. You have to build a workforce that’s willing to stay around for five or 10 years and sees that career growth and sees purpose in the work that they’re doing and community, and feels like the workforce is inclusive to their needs and who they are.
Kyle Lagunas:
Yeah, work that they want to do and work that they want to keep doing. And I really do feel like maybe in the next couple of conference cycles, culture is going to come right back up to the top. Because do you remember? It was after, post-recession, we had started to recover and it was suddenly, competition for talent was really heating up and culture was the conversation at every single HR event. I do wonder if this just, it’s another cycle. We’re realizing, yes, capitalism, yes, productivity. We should be contributing and doing what we get paid to do, but we’re people and we will opt out. Whether it’s quiet quitting or whether it’s putting our hand back down or whether it’s moving out every two years. The new workforce is not committed to you.
Ashley Litzenberger:
They’re not committed to toxic work relationships.
Kyle Lagunas:
No, no.
Ashley Litzenberger:
And if they start to feel like it, they’re going to look somewhere else or they’re going to disengage. So what do you do to bring humanity back into your workforce and into your HR processes? How do you create a place where someone feels like they can bring themselves to work?
Kyle Lagunas:
Well, speaking of culture, it’s like… HR needs to evolve its culture, I think.
Ashley Litzenberger:
What do you mean by that? What is wrong with HR’s culture today and where does it need to evolve?
Kyle Lagunas:
Look, HR is in a really tough spot. And if we talk about burnout, you need to talk to HR people. They are burnt out. I think that we need to be able to empower HR to be that steward of trust and commitment and value for the workforce, as well as empowering them or trusting them to drive productivity and unlock obstacles in the operating cultures or operating environment. They need to be almost like a catalyst for a better place to work.
Ashley Litzenberger:
So what’s one or two concrete changes, if someone who’s listening is in HR and they’re feeling the exact same things, they’re feeling the stress of the burnout from the last two years and all of the things that it’s entailed on their teams and just the toll it’s taken, what can they do to change a process either for their team or for their entire workforce? What’s something they can do?
Kyle Lagunas:
So I’m going to say one behavior thing and then one best practice thing. I think a behavior thing, lean back into your values, the company values. I don’t really, I haven’t heard a lot of folks, when they’re in a tough discussion or there’s a decision to be made, I don’t hear them leaning back into, “Well, you know what? Here at X company, we value Y.” And I think because of, that’s our answer here, is let’s lean back into our values. HR could be referencing these things more to just kind of say, “Hey, these things matter. This is a part of our operating culture, and if these values don’t represent the culture now, then we need to update those.” Right? So that’s behavioral. Let’s lean into the values to make sure that we are who we want to be.
Ashley Litzenberger:
So vet every process decision and look either in the decision-making process or afterwards, look back and say, “Does this decision align with our company values and are we actually walking the walk that we’ve laid out?”
Kyle Lagunas:
Otherwise, those are just posters on the wall. Right?
Ashley Litzenberger:
Yeah.
Kyle Lagunas:
So the other thing that I think is bit of a process or best practice shift is we all know that benefits utilization, especially auxiliary benefits, things like pet insurance or benefits for-
Ashley Litzenberger:
Like wellness apps.
Kyle Lagunas:
… counselors. You literally are invested in their well-being in a major way, right? And say, “Hey, guess what? Only 6% of people are using our reimbursement for our gym reimbursements. And I know that more than 6% of you are working out, and I also know that more than 6% of you would like to be able to work out, so let’s make a push for this.” So there are HR programs and products that we have already delivered that need to be revisited. So let’s start looking at that.
Ashley Litzenberger:
Yeah, I mean, I have a great anecdote. I have a really good friend who’s a chemical engineer. He works at a pharmaceutical company, and he just moved from being an individual contributor to a manager. And he checked in with his manager who’s been in seat for 25, 30 years as does happen in pharmaceuticals.
Kyle Lagunas:
Yeah.
Ashley Litzenberger:
And said, “Hey, is there any manager training that I can take to learn how to be a manager?” Because he’s very… He knows that he doesn’t have those people skills and that’s not a strength that he’s cultivated. And his manager was like, “No, that’s not something our company offered.” And he was talking to me about this and I was like, “You’ve got to reach out to anybody on the HR team and they will tell you where that is.” Because I think there is a level of education that needs to happen, just like you were saying. HR is investing and is being incredibly thoughtful about building skill building, talent management, talent development, wellness benefits for their workforce, but there is a gap between knowledge and so just making sure that you are constantly communicating out to your teams. Talk to your marketing team about how often, how many touches it takes for your brands to get out there, and run your own internal awareness campaigns for the things that you’re doing.
Kyle Lagunas:
Look, HR, do you feel like you’re shouting to the void? You are. And we have a lot of experience with that. Yeah.
Ashley Litzenberger:
Yeah, get creative on that. Yeah. I guess I want to switch and talk a little bit more and get into some of these touchy-feely things beyond workforce productivity because we like to differentiate touchy-feely from hard numbers and statistics, but we’ve just mentioned, we’re not robots. We’re humans. What are the things that executives are missing, your CEOs and your CFOs? What is the connection that they’re missing between things like wellness programs, things like recharge days and productivity? Often when I talk to CFOs or CEOs, they’re like, “A day off is lost productivity.” But HR teams are trying to make the case that a day off is actually recharging, which reduces burnout, which creates long-term productivity. What are the things that your executives are missing and how do you help them bridge that disconnect? How do you help them see what it is that they’re missing?
Kyle Lagunas:
I feel bad for executives right now. I mean, I talk about the workforce getting squeezed. I know it’s extremely stressful at the top now, and maybe that’s part of what’s trickling down, is they are getting blown up and they need to turn and… That pressure’s coming from somewhere, right? So I think that might be part of it is like, “Hey, HR, maybe we do need to be getting back into leadership development and leadership well-being.” Right? I had a really interesting conversation, this notion of bringing your whole self to work, and I’m like, “I don’t personally want to bring my whole self to work.” I don’t know about bringing my best self to work either. Sometimes I’m just going to bring… like, come to work.
For leaders, it’s really tough lately because you are not just a business leader. You are a figurehead. You are a people leader. People are looking to you to say, “I am going to take off on Thursday early because my kid has a recital.” And that’s okay for us to step away and use PTO to take care of your family. And maybe that person doesn’t want to share why they’re taking off because maybe they’re going to get a colonoscopy. I don’t know. But it’s like there’s a high expectation on leaders today to do the work and then also to drive the culture, and then to also drive productivity and then also to represent all of these different things. So maybe this is advice for HR, go and hug a leader. Hug each other, maybe.
But I feel it’s just like… Maybe we need to acknowledge the nuance around well-being and that whole self, best self conversation is just bringing as much as you care to. That is an important part of inclusivity is, I don’t want to be best friends with everybody here and that’s okay. I’ve actually been at a company where we had a part of our engagement survey was, do you have a best friend at work? And I feel like that’s a immediately biased question because whatever the data is, “No. I only have one whole best friend in the whole wide world and it’s my mom.”
Ashley Litzenberger:
Yeah.
Kyle Lagunas:
As a survey person, I’m like, “Why would you ask that?” But I just feel like we need to make more room, create more room for nuance and for individualism. The inclusivity piece is not making everyone sit down together. It’s actually acknowledging that somebody wants to sit over there.
Ashley Litzenberger:
Yeah. It’s about allowing people to have the level of engagement and the level of maybe obsession with work that is comfortable for them, because you do have folks who want to live and breathe and think their career, and that is just where their mind works.
Kyle Lagunas:
They’re the ones who ask another question as the Zoom call is ending, right? They’re like, “Hey, one more thing.” You’re like literally, “Shut up, Kyle.”
Ashley Litzenberger:
Or the person who’s like, “Yeah, I was just reading this book on our profession and just taking notes on it over my vacation and here’s what I came up with.”
Kyle Lagunas:
Nerd.
Ashley Litzenberger:
And sometimes we do love to do that and sometimes we have other passions, and it’s about letting both of those things become normalized in the workforce. Productivity does not mean that everyone becomes steeped and overwhelmed in the work that they do, and that becomes the only dimension of their personality. In fact, that’s the fastest way to burnout, and the fastest way to mental unwellness, is to have only one dimension of your personality be the only definition of it.
Kyle Lagunas:
That’s so interesting. We’re landing here too then. It’s like productivity is a nuanced and multidimensional concept, multifaceted, and so let’s not just go manic with metrics. Maybe that’s part of the message is, let’s really kind of lean back in with the IO psychologists and talk about, what’s the psychology of productivity? What level of psychological safety and inclusivity do we need here to foster a productive environment? And then we can lean into some metrics that people are good with. How does that sound?
Ashley Litzenberger:
Or someone in HR trying to understand the psychology of productivity, what’s something they could read? What’s something that… Who’s someone they could look up? What can they ChatGPT or what can they Google?
Kyle Lagunas:
Oh, my gosh. I’m actually really bad. I read sci-fi and fantasy novels exclusively, so don’t know any workbooks. The only podcast I listen to is my own, Transformation Realness.
Ashley Litzenberger:
[Laughs] Okay.
Kyle Lagunas:
I don’t do work stuff when I’m not working. I will say this, find a space that gives you joy, that just is an outlet. Have some escapism. I think breathe and touch grass as you’re thinking about productivity. Don’t just sit squirreled in your office staring at 16 different spreadsheets. That’s my advice.
Ashley Litzenberger:
I like that. And with that, I think that is the end of our podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today, Kyle.
Kyle Lagunas:
We loved it. Thank you for having me.
Ashley Litzenberger:
As we wrap up our conversation on boosting workforce productivity while keeping a human touch, let’s take a moment to think about three takeaways you can apply in your organization. First, focus on building trust and giving meaningful feedback. As Kyle mentioned, when employees feel trusted and receive regular constructive feedback, their engagement and productivity can soar. It’s all about open communication and recognizing everyone’s contributions. Second, embrace flexibility in work arrangements. Kyle pointed out that flexibility is crucial for reducing burnout and improving overall well-being. By helping employees balance their work and personal lives, you’ll create a more motivated and productive team. Lastly, make use of structured data for performance management.
Kyle stressed the importance of organized data in making smart decisions and spotting areas for improvement. Implement systems that gather and analyze performance data to gain valuable insights and drive better outcomes. Remember, today’s discussion has shown us that focusing on trust, flexibility, and data-driven decisions can create a supportive, productive, and inclusive work environment. By integrating these strategies, we can enhance our organizational culture and achieve meaningful business results.
Be sure to stay tuned for our next episode of the People Fundamentals podcast. Subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube Music, and if you like what you hear, share us with your friends and colleagues. We’ll see you again soon.
